Curse

Denny Pace · Jul 24, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader....

After logging about 200 hours in GW and 'finishing' the game as a W/N (highly underrated combo, I can assure you), I decided to create a M/W PvP char and slip into the PvP portion of the game using both of these characters. No, I'm not in a guild.

I put about 20 hours into PvP with my chars and realized that I'm not interested - at all - in playing PvP. Here are a couple reasons why:

1) Extremely tough to get a decent team together.

2) PvP skills seem to be exponential in nature, as compared to PvE. What I mean by this is, while you can progress in PvE at a relatively linear pace, as soon as you hit PvP, you are faced with some of the very best players in the world, who have perfected builds and strategies it would take you and your friends many months to comprehend, let along become adept at.

Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

Howling Wind · Jul 24, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

It might take a little while but you should soon get the hang of it and be able to understand the strategies and build used by teams. If you've never done pvp before and jump straight to tombs, then yeah it might look awkard and tough, if your talkiing about linear progress then for PvP its arena's, it usually gets tougher as you advance through different arena's until reaching the tombs.

Weezer_Blue · Jul 24, 2005, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Try GvG before you disassociate yourself with PvP entirely. Hitting the Tombs, getting your ass handed to you, and saying you don't like PvP is a mistake. You'll like GvG a lot better, because, not only is it easier to get into, it's more pure PvP. There is less ganking (only happens in Guild Lord zergs which you shouldn't fall for after the first one, if at all) and there's none of this "wait for the other 5 teams to kill each other before we join the fight" bullshit.

Aniewiel · Jul 24, 2005, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

I feel that way as well. I think that you will find that a vast majority of players are either "one or the other"---PvP or PvE. There are just not that many who enjoy both.

Hardcore PvPers played through the game once (most of them, I think) then many rush subsequent characters through in order to unlock skills and such. They know what it is they want from that character, what will work, what will not and they are focused on that alone.

Hardcore PvEers are more like you. They play through the game, experimenting as they go and, when the game is finished, they give PvP a go and often find that their builds are lacking and certainly not competitive in the arenas against players whose sole focus is PvP---players who have researched, twinked and perfected their builds.

There is very little middle ground though I know that it is there. But, for me, I feel as you do: PvP is not for me though I harbor no ill-will to those who enjoy it. I hope they're having as much fun in PvP as I am in PvE. Even with grinding, nerfing and everything, I'm still having a blast.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 24, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun?

Yes, I do.
Not only is it a question of experience, but also of team. You're unlikely to ever do well in a random group, as _individual_ skill is of zero worth, and you're not tuned to the builds of the others in your random team. It's just luck if you happen to complement the other guys in a random team.

Odd Sock · Jul 24, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I can understand the concern and quite frankly I have to agree with pretty much everything stated above. The only recommendations I have is to find yourself a guild and if you ever change your mind about PvP, you should also look into voice communication programs. You'll never defeat top ranked teams consistently without those two elements.

Loviatar · Jul 24, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

i am a long time PVErt as well

there seems to be a completely different mindset between the each type much like the difference between cat and dog lovers (CAT FOR ME)

the hardcore pvp was through the game in a day or 2 so they could get to what they considered fun.

i have more than 300 hours on my elemonk and just am getting to the push to Riverside with henchies

i have had fun for most of those 300 plus hours even though i havent come close to the finish yet.

Nightsorrow · Jul 24, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I WAS like you, I only wanted to play PvE and had little interest in PvP - if anything, the end of Pre-Searing combat just deterred me from it (first attempt I got my ass handed to me on a plate, lost 11-0). But then having completed the game with 2 characters now, (N/Me and W/Mo, with an E/R at Lions Arch), I was running out of stuff to do. So I decided to turn my hand to Pvp, as I had unlocked a fair amount of runes from my time playing. I gave the Competition Arena a try, I don't remember which class it was with - and I found that I either got annihilated, or that I annihilated them, either way - it was a learning process. Eventually I aquired more of a taste for it, and now probably spent more time in the Arena than I do playing PvE, experimenting with numerous builds + combinations.

The way I look at it - PvP is just another element, just like the first time you got to Old Ascalon, you will have found killing the Charr a bit of a challenge, now if you create a new Hero, you'll walk through it without breaking a sweat.

Give the Competition Arenas a chance with one of the premade Pvp charas (I found the Pyromancer was the most fun for some quick carnage), only move into Tombs when you're fairly confident and/or have a team of people you have played with before.

Sarus · Jul 24, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

You're unlikely to ever do well in a random group, as _individual_ skill is of zero worth, and you're not tuned to the builds of the others in your random team.

I don't think that's entirely true. Individual skill is always of worth. Give 8 PvP noobs the exact build that iQ runs in tombs or that Wa runs or any of the other builds that competitive guilds use and they're still probably get crushed.

Now you're probably referring to random 4v4 arena and how individual skill in this type of PvP doesn't help. Again I think that's not true. Take 1 iQ, 1 SoW, 1 nU, and 1 Wa member, put them in 4 seperate rooms and tell them to come up with their individual build. (They aren't allowed to talk to each other about their builds mind you). Then take 4 random nubs and have them come up with 4 seperate builds (they can't talk about it either). Have the 4 guilded guys play the 4 random guys and who do you think is going to win? Neither team was able to discuss their builds beforehand so if skill was of zero importance then neither team should have an advantage. That being said who do you think is going to win? I'll put my money on the team with the iQ, nU, SoW and Wa guys. Obviously skill still plays some importance.

The big thing here is knowing how to play whatever build you decided to bring into the arena. You could argue that even if you did know how to play your well thought out build, more likely than not the other 3 members of your team won't, and so your individual skill won't matter (your skill will be nullified by the stupidity of others if you will). Even if this happens you're still gonna last longer than if all 4 people on your team had no idea what was going on.

So, to sum up ....skill is important in every type of PvP and DOES make a difference.

In regards to the original poster I can definitely sympathize with you. The PvP portion of this game has a huge learning curve. My suggestion would be to stay away from tombs for a while and stick with the random 4v4 arenas (the level 20 ones). Once you feel confident there, move to the 4v4 team arena (where you can pick your team). Spend some time learning the basic types of builds you're going to see in the team arenas (mini air spike, hammer warriors, smiters etc.)
When you finally move to tombs most of the builds are expanded versions of what you see in team arena. Finally, start keeping an eye out for decent guilds. By decent I mean good size, nice people, and a willingness to PvP (assuming you want to improve your PvP game of course).

Finally, don't hesitate to ask questions on these forums. There are lots of very knowledgeable people that will be willing to help you out. (Just ignore the trolls and flamers that will inevitably reply to some of your posts).

Spookie Noobie · Jul 24, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I'm amazed at what experienced pvp'ers bring to the game and it can be pretty intimidating. I've found though that if you give pvp a chance, read the message boards for strats and play around with different pvp char combos you'll start to get the hang of it. It also doesn't hurt (as you've done) to play a good amount of pve to unlock skills, maybe even change secondary professions to unlock other skills/elites for pvp.

Also, understand there will be times when you get matched up in the Random Arenas with teams that don't quite work to well together or on the other hand experienced pvp'ers which will help bring out the best in a team.

Denny Pace I see you tried PVP as a Monk/War which tells me you're probably being targeted first at the onset of battle, that's pressure. You may want to try a War/Monk, in this way you could still help your team with small heals here and there (while hacking up your teams primary target - distracting it in the very least) and you most likely wouldn't be the prime target early on in the fighting.

Also, if you win x10 random team arena games you get transported to 'pug arena' which I think is a bit tougher, if you're not having much luck there use the map to go back to 'random arena' where the competition is easier because players tend to experiment with different builds.

Hope this helps & good luck.

Weezer_Blue · Jul 24, 2005, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I feel that way as well. I think that you will find that a vast majority of players are either "one or the other"---PvP or PvE. There are just not that many who enjoy both.

after much personal experience, I disagree entirely. most players may lean towards a certain one, but they aren't hardcore this, or hardcore that. if it were really 2 different games: PvP and PvE, with players divided into both, there would be none of this unlocking skills contraversy, and much less problems. but, obviously, there are these problems, and players are not cleanly divided over PvE and PvP.

Tombs is like a slap in the face. Until you get a great team build, and get your guild or common associates to go there with you rather than PUG's, it's really not worth your time looking for a party and then getting stomped in the first or second round by air spikers.

nohooiam · Jul 24, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

it's surprising to me that a lot of people who played pve are reluctant to move more into the pvp area. after playing a few pve chars, and getting all the skills and items unlocked, there is nothing more left to do other than run uw/fow or farm. pvp should be the place where individuals can find out where they really stand in guildwars.

the mindset of a pvp player (i believe) is that they want the highest level of competition and challenge through combating against real players rather than scripted AI's. the element of winning against another person on a equal footing is what makes pvp such a rewarding experience.

FFF_WarRaven · Jul 24, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Myself, I prefer PvE at this point in time, there are several things i still need to do suck as unlocking a lot of things, items that are really hard for me to find, even wiht the character i use that seems to find and unlock more than any of the other(by a large % too) i am also in a guild and only a few of the members are really into PvP, i'm really not hot into GvG, i just don't like it, plus our guild never seems to be able to work together properly( least in my opnion) we tend to get mad at each other over little things, it's always been this way with us, and our core members have been together for at least 5 years playing different games.

I enjoy the PVE more because i donot have to depend on anyone to enjoy the game, PvP on the other hand i feel you need to have time to work with others and understand their type of play, querks, etc, at some point i may get into PvP more but at this time i need to unlock a serious amount of items and skills.

Right now im working on my 6th char(deleted 2 others ) a mo/war which at this time is a mo/mes, im experminting with a solo build for uw, i still find myself reading the same skills over and over trying to put together something that works for me, so untill i finish that build and another that needs to finish the game i'm putting pvp to the side, because their are to many varibles that hinder me at this point to take full advantage of the area of the game to make it enjoyable yet.

:::End Transmission:::

Spike · Jul 24, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

I sure as hell do. I find pvp pointless and a complete waste of time. I think it should be removed from GW alltogether

Phades · Jul 24, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

I don't think that's entirely true. Individual skill is always of worth. Give 8 PvP noobs the exact build that iQ runs in tombs or that Wa runs or any of the other builds that competitive guilds use and they're still probably get crushed.

Now you're probably referring to random 4v4 arena and how individual skill in this type of PvP doesn't help. Again I think that's not true. Take 1 iQ, 1 SoW, 1 nU, and 1 Wa member, put them in 4 seperate rooms and tell them to come up with their individual build. (They aren't allowed to talk to each other about their builds mind you). Then take 4 random nubs and have them come up with 4 seperate builds (they can't talk about it either). Have the 4 guilded guys play the 4 random guys and who do you think is going to win? Neither team was able to discuss their builds beforehand so if skill was of zero importance then neither team should have an advantage. That being said who do you think is going to win? I'll put my money on the team with the iQ, nU, SoW and Wa guys. Obviously skill still plays some importance.

The big thing here is knowing how to play whatever build you decided to bring into the arena. You could argue that even if you did know how to play your well thought out build, more likely than not the other 3 members of your team won't, and so your individual skill won't matter (your skill will be nullified by the stupidity of others if you will). Even if this happens you're still gonna last longer than if all 4 people on your team had no idea what was going on.

So, to sum up ....skill is important in every type of PvP and DOES make a difference.

In regards to the original poster I can definitely sympathize with you. The PvP portion of this game has a huge learning curve. My suggestion would be to stay away from tombs for a while and stick with the random 4v4 arenas (the level 20 ones). Once you feel confident there, move to the 4v4 team arena (where you can pick your team). Spend some time learning the basic types of builds you're going to see in the team arenas (mini air spike, hammer warriors, smiters etc.)
When you finally move to tombs most of the builds are expanded versions of what you see in team arena. Finally, start keeping an eye out for decent guilds. By decent I mean good size, nice people, and a willingness to PvP (assuming you want to improve your PvP game of course).

Finally, don't hesitate to ask questions on these forums. There are lots of very knowledgeable people that will be willing to help you out. (Just ignore the trolls and flamers that will inevitably reply to some of your posts).

I think it is more of a question of dead weight. Sure 4 people with skill will tend to outperform 4 people without, but if its only 4 people of 8, then it becomes problematic. The amount of sway one skilled player tends to be small when rated against 8 individuals, while depending on 7 others. GW is not quite as forgiving as some other games in that aspect. Much like if you start loosing, it seems to be far more difficult to turn it around than just finishing off another team. Part of that is due to strategy of the builds that happen outside of the areas of conflict, where by contrast more of the player's intuition and skill being tested within the conflict have a somewhat marginal sway by comparison.

PieXags · Jul 24, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I find that GvG is about the only fun way for PvP, and even that gets tiring after awhile with only 8vs8. Still the most fun though just because of the enviornments you fight in. Tombs is full of losers all insulting everyone and either really sucky builds or really good builds that make it difficult to just get immersed and enjoy yourself when everything's so "arena" like.

Try some GvG, it's about the only decent PvP I find in the game nowadays.

Linkie · Jul 24, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

I sure as hell do. I find pvp pointless and a complete waste of time. I think it should be removed from GW alltogether

Shouldn't have bought a PvP oriented game then, eh?

Sarus · Jul 24, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

I think it is more of a question of dead weight. Sure 4 people with skill will tend to outperform 4 people without, but if its only 4 people of 8, then it becomes problematic

Deadweight = people without skill = skill matters

Pandora's box · Jul 24, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I have the same feelings as the original poster. I would like to suggest 2 things:

-Working out the league-based competion so that there are many league levels (10-15) and every team has to start at the bottom level. Reaching the top-X will unlock the next level for them, after such a promotion its not possible to play on a lower level anymore (no degradation).
-For individual or random arena introduce a rating system and only allow players with more or less the same ratings to fight each other (Not ranking of fame; rating can go up AND down, and is finer to tune).

Divinitys Creature · Jul 24, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader....

After logging about 200 hours in GW and 'finishing' the game as a W/N (highly underrated combo, I can assure you), I decided to create a M/W PvP char and slip into the PvP portion of the game using both of these characters. No, I'm not in a guild.

I put about 20 hours into PvP with my chars and realized that I'm not interested - at all - in playing PvP. Here are a couple reasons why:

1) Extremely tough to get a decent team together.

2) PvP skills seem to be exponential in nature, as compared to PvE. What I mean by this is, while you can progress in PvE at a relatively linear pace, as soon as you hit PvP, you are faced with some of the very best players in the world, who have perfected builds and strategies it would take you and your friends many months to comprehend, let along become adept at.

Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

For the example of a PvEer trying to get into PvP

You might think of it like this, PvP in tombs and GvG is like a million extra levels after the UW and Fissure.

There are 450 skills in the game. With 8 players that means you have 64 skills in a team. There are like a bajillion combinations and order of skills (which player has which) that can be made from the choice of 450. There are countless different ways of using them.

There are also different maps. Think of Chess, each side has 16 pieces on a small map and there's a bajillion possible different games. GW PvP is designed to have much more diversity, because of the skills, having more players and different maps.

The 25 missions you face in PvE have very predictable mobs who are not intelligent. UW and Fissure also run like clockwork. PvP is the million levels after Ring of Fire, where it is hard to predict what will happen and every game is different. You can't get mobs stuck on a wall and you can't run away and hope they will stop aggro. That is the beauty of GuildWars PvP. The mob at the front of the entrance to tombs is likely to be quite a challenge to some.

Imagine a well seasoned PvP player/team as a randomly spawning mob who can counter everything you do, like your doppelganger but harder. They know about the game, they know how to counter certain things. You can compete against many by just learning how to counter common strategies. Reading through the online skill lists for all professions will give you an advantage over most players who don't. Playing through as a different profession in random arenas is a good way to know your enemy. If you always get killed by mesmers, go play a mesmer in arenas and learn how they kill. Then you will be better able to counter them.

Ascending and learning how to counter yourself was a first experience of this - and if you didn't want to ascend straight away you could test all sorts of ways of fighting against yourself. Arenas let you do that without doing lengthy missions first, make full use of that.

Think of Tombs and GvG as very high level missions with Arenas as the transition region. GvG is more straightforward and can serve as training for tombs. Then when you have some experience of how to beat just one team in GvG, tombs will help you train to be better at beating multiple teams and so you will get better at GvG as you learn to adapt better.